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Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 465	Posted - 2014.07.12 08:05:00 - [1] - Quote Frisbee remotes have to go... heres why there is simply no counter to them, scouts are already hard to detect with their profile damps and hard to shoot with their speed. on top of this they can jump extremely high and throw a remote a good 5 to 10 meters out. there is no way to counter this except by using the same tactic.... this is not balance. right now with all the other bonuses scouts get, armed with a few remotes to Frisbee can decimate the other team. 1 SCOUT! can take out 2 heavies being repped by 2 logis with no more than 2 remotes that are thrown and ready to detonate before you even know they are there, and this is happening in PC matches! a good team with good battle awareness who run well together can be wiped out by one cloaky scout flanking and dropping 2 remotes, and there is no defence against this. there is no other class in the game that can single handedly wipe out an entire squad in 4 seconds.... now I am a huge fan of remotes and I use them often, but a damped fast scout throwing them 10 meters while running through machine gun fire and not even losing shields is waaaaaaaay OP.... I don't want to see my beloved remotes nerfed into oblivion, but if scouts aren't gonna change, then throwing remotes has to go either that or do a serious overhaul on scouts....
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 465	Posted - 2014.07.12 08:26:00 - [2] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: The issue isn't with Scouts, it's with the remotes themselves. Longer delay between throwing and detonation will turn them from an offensive weapon into a defensive tactical tool. Remotes should be for setting traps and taking out enemies at choke points, not something you use as a means to kill someone in a head on encounter. but the only class that can throw them this far is the scout so it is a scout issue.... making the timers longer nerfs other styles of game play with them.... the only problem is how far scouts can throw them coupled with their other abilities. I propse a max 1 meter throwing distance no matter how high you jump... it should literally just drop to the ground like a rock after it hits a max 1 meter distance from the user... this still allows to put them on walls/ceilings and keeps them viable for tanks.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 465	Posted - 2014.07.12 08:51:00 - [3] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Nothing Certain wrote: TheEnd762 wrote: Longer delay will make it even more impossible to place more than one on a tank before they run. How will it have any effect on this? The delay will be in detonation, not placement. Indeed. And a longer detonation timer doesn't hinder different playstyles, unless you're a frisbee thrower that is. Remotes are still very useful is a ton of different situations. but in a situation where a logi heavy combo is defending an objective, whats still to stop the scout from frisbeeing the remotes running away unnoticed and then detonating them? with how far they can throw them they can still get in and out unseen and while the squad is busy fighting resistance a scout can still get in and cause just as much havoc with no counter to the tactic... but if you make the max distance say a meter then they would have to get much closer and risk being seen and killed.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 465	Posted - 2014.07.12 09:33:00 - [4] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Try this: Open your eyes, listen with your ears. It has worked wonders for me. Edit: But really, it you see someone drop remotes rush them. we do... I'm not talking about scrubby scouts doing this to scrubby teams in scrubby pubs... this crap is happening in PC with good teams who know how to play the game. we hear them, we see the remotes but we don't see the scout until its to late because they are tossing them 5 to 10 meters the scouts don't show up on scans and move too fast and detonate them before seasoned vets can react. it isn't any one of these things that is the problem its all of these things working together that create the issue. a scout flanks jumps toses and runs away and detonates all within 4 seconds... it is impossible to counter. a seasoned PC squad can be killed by one scout doing this.... that should not happen. again I will emphasize, there is no time to react to this, there is no way to get out of the way.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 16:40:00 - [5] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: An increase to det would be welcome I would however like to say that the true counter to REs is indeed situational awareness and common sense. A scout needs a minimum of 3 seconds to set off an RE if you see a scout tossing the RE either back up, kill him so he can't det it, or rush him, the blast radius for the RE is pathetic. And yes there IS time to react you're over exaggerating, fast yes, hardly unavoidable ESPECIALLY when throwing multiple. If you can't pick up said scout then you and yours are at fault, there are counters to the scout, the callscout(soon to be Amarr) and the Gall logi, complaining about stealthy scouts whith no scanners is the same as complaining about tanks yet not using AV=you died because you were ill equipped. (or stupid.) As for the frisbee thing, it's not just a scout problem, it's everyone with equipment. Also: By meters do you mean actual meters or the patheticly tiny meters in game? Becaus I think I'd remember if I could toss an RE over 30 feet..... P.S= sorry if I seem pissy slept 5 hours in 3 days and it's getting to me. I can only believe an RE scout would make a post like this.... I have offered 20 mil to a scout in a PC match showing exactly what I describe.... but then again I cant imagine any scout would want to compromise their "I win" button... no there is no time to react it is unavoidable when a brick tankes gal or super fast cal scout rushes in, jumps tosses the remote extremely far, doges or soaks up every round shout at him and then detonates the re.... I am not exaggerating... I've seen this happen... I have seen scouts attempt to do what I describe and fail horribly, yes... but a half decent scout can pull this off with success more than half the time, and there is nothing you can do to counter it. as I have tried to make clear... it isn't just tossing a remote it isn't just a scouts speed, or their ability to get close undetected, or their jumping it is all of these combined a fast undetected scout jumping and tossing a remote up to 10 meters and being able to dodge 4 people shooting right at him is OP the whole issue would be solved if remotes had a max 1 meter tossing distance
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 16:44:00 - [6] - Quote Louis Domi wrote: This thread went from RE's being too good, to there is something wrong about scouts? Logis can throw out RE's, why assualts can as well, even commandos, why focus on scout? because only scouts with how high they can jump and how fast they move can toss them as far as they do. oh and no to the tanker crybabies in my thread jlavs are still not a problem tossing remotes 10 meters is the problem.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 16:45:00 - [7] - Quote Louis Domi wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Louis Domi wrote: This thread went from RE's being too good, to there is something wrong about scouts? Logis can throw out RE's, why assualts can as well, even commandos, why focus on scout? Scount OP nurf naow it kil my hevy soot Really the only reason the OP is complaining at all is because his heavy crutch can still be killed Just saw your "how to go positive for dummies" fit on protofits, I swear it is too true. Oh and also, most armor heavies can survive a std RE blast to the face... with a good chunk of hp left... I'm a logi btw... 35 mil sp and I only just started skilling heavies tyvm....
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 17:48:00 - [8] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Louis Domi wrote: This thread went from RE's being too good, to there is something wrong about scouts? Logis can throw out RE's, why assualts can as well, even commandos, why focus on scout? because only scouts with how high they can jump and how fast they move can toss them as far as they do. oh and no to the tanker crybabies in my thread jlavs are still not a problem tossing remotes 10 meters is the problem. Neither are RE spamming scouts. I don't care about the re spam... I like it... I do it.... its how far they can be thrown is the problem.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:26:00 - [9] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Louis Domi wrote: This thread went from RE's being too good, to there is something wrong about scouts? Logis can throw out RE's, why assualts can as well, even commandos, why focus on scout? because only scouts with how high they can jump and how fast they move can toss them as far as they do. oh and no to the tanker crybabies in my thread jlavs are still not a problem tossing remotes 10 meters is the problem. But tossing remotes 10 meters is an "innovative tactic"! It's your fault you didn't kill the scout soon enough! I agree tossing remotes is an innovative tactic, one I use... I disagree with its lack of counter balance. just tossing them in itself are fine but coupled with a scout who is fast, invisible, and can dodge a sqd firing at him at close range while jumping is unbalanced. it's the most powerful weapon in the game, next to an orbital, it should also have some serious drawbacks... the Frisbee mechanic neutralizes one of the most important drawbacks, its range.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:29:00 - [10] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: 3 seconds gives even the slowest suits in the game the opportunity to move at least 9.39m.Even if the RE was placed directly on the feet of the Complex Plate Stacked Amarr Sentinel, at 9.39m you take no damage. The vast majority of medium frames and light frames should easily be able to get completely out of the blast radius within 3 seconds. Even if it took them a second to react (which likely means that you were snuck up on), they could get out of the blast with no problem. Even if it took the victim 2 while seconds to react, most suits would be able to get out of the blast radius, and the ones that couldn't would be far enough away and have enough HP to survive. Keep in mind that I'm assuming the RE is a PRO RE. Any suit could get completely out of the blast radius of the STD and ADV ones. once you take into account a human reaction speed, the chaos of the fight ( mind you I am specifically talking PC here, not pubs, theres a lot more chatter and competition in a pc) and the scouts natural abilities making them extremely fast and almost invisible, 3 seconds is not enough... but I don't want to nerf the timers... I just want to reduce the tossing distance...

Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:36:00 - [11] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: An increase to det would be welcome I would however like to say that the true counter to REs is indeed situational awareness and common sense. A scout needs a minimum of 3 seconds to set off an RE if you see a scout tossing the RE either back up, kill him so he can't det it, or rush him, the blast radius for the RE is pathetic. And yes there IS time to react you're over exaggerating, fast yes, hardly unavoidable ESPECIALLY when throwing multiple. If you can't pick up said scout then you and yours are at fault, there are counters to the scout, the callscout(soon to be Amarr) and the Gall logi, complaining about stealthy scouts whith no scanners is the same as complaining about tanks yet not using AV=you died because you were ill equipped. (or stupid.) As for the frisbee thing, it's not just a scout problem, it's everyone with equipment. Also: By meters do you mean actual meters or the patheticly tiny meters in game? Becaus I think I'd remember if I could toss an RE over 30 feet..... P.S= sorry if I seem pissy slept 5 hours in 3 days and it's getting to me. I can only believe an RE scout would make a post like this.... I have offered 20 mil to a scout in a PC match showing exactly what I describe.... but then again I cant imagine any scout would want to compromise their "I win" button... no there is no time to react it is unavoidable when a brick tankes gal or super fast cal scout rushes in, jumps tosses the remote extremely far, doges or soaks up every round shout at him and then detonates the re.... I am not exaggerating... I've seen this happen... I have seen scouts attempt to do what I describe and fail horribly, yes... but a half decent scout can pull this off with success more than half the time, and there is nothing you can do to counter it. as I have tried to make clear... it isn't just tossing a remote it isn't just a scouts speed, or their ability to get close undetected, or their jumping it is all of these combined a fast undetected scout jumping and tossing a remote up to 10 meters and being able to dodge 4 people shooting right at him is OP the whole issue would be solved if remotes had a max 1 meter tossing distance ....You come across both ignorant and unmoveable with this post. Yes I'm an RE scout, no that's not all I do, to make assumptions about my playstyle, my motives, and my character without knowing or even engaging in a conversation with myself makes me think one of two things= You are ignorant. or You're a troll. If you did speak to me instead of brushing me off you'd have learned a few things on my opinion on the subject, including my multiple threads on the subject of balancing REs. With your response I can only imagine you're either a troll or a fool, for multiple reasons. I don't know you but that's all you're presenting here with your response. Now=can we try this again? im neither a troll or a fool... and I was right you are a scout... that aside, I did not mean to come off as brushing you off, I don't know of your threads. link them and I will read them... I only meant to convey the bias a scout inherently feels, as any of us do about our personal playstyles... I am in favor of mechanics that reward skill instead of items you can get that lesson the players contribution to achieve what only players of great skill should be able to pull off... I think a fast, low prfile high jumping scout, armed with one of the most powerful weapons in the game should have some serious drawbacks but tossing them as far as they can nullifies what I believe should be a remotes biggest drawback, its range.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 22:37:00 - [12] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: I would like an increased arming time, or maybe that fluxes disarm the explosive without detonating; I don't like the way REs force a defensive position to be shifted around it until the RE can be safely disposed. Aside from that though I'm of the opinion that REs vs infantry are mostly fine; when I die to them these days it's cos I did something silly. I agree they are mostly fine... the Frisbee mechanic isn't imo.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 468	Posted - 2014.07.12 23:20:00 - [13] - Quote Sinboto Simmons wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Sinboto Simmons wrote: An increase to det would be welcome I would however like to say that the true counter to REs is indeed situational awareness and common sense. A scout needs a minimum of 3 seconds to set off an RE if you see a scout tossing the RE either back up, kill him so he can't det it, or rush him, the blast radius for the RE is pathetic. And yes there IS time to react you're over exaggerating, fast yes, hardly unavoidable ESPECIALLY when throwing multiple. If you can't pick up said scout then you and yours are at fault, there are counters to the scout, the callscout(soon to be Amarr) and the Gall logi, complaining about stealthy scouts whith no scanners is the same as complaining about tanks yet not using AV=you died because you were ill equipped. (or stupid.) As for the frisbee thing, it's not just a scout problem, it's everyone with equipment. Also: By meters do you mean actual meters or the patheticly tiny meters in game? Becaus I think I'd remember if I could toss an RE over 30 feet..... P.S= sorry if I seem pissy slept 5 hours in 3 days and it's getting to me. I can only believe an RE scout would make a post like this.... I have offered 20 mil to a scout in a PC match showing exactly what I describe.... but then again I cant imagine any scout would want to compromise their "I win" button... no there is no time to react it is unavoidable when a brick tankes gal or super fast cal scout rushes in, jumps tosses the remote extremely far, doges or soaks up every round shout at him and then detonates the re.... I am not exaggerating... I've seen this happen... I have seen scouts attempt to do what I describe and fail horribly, yes... but a half decent scout can pull this off with success more than half the time, and there is nothing you can do to counter it. as I have tried to make clear... it isn't just tossing a remote it isn't just a scouts speed, or their ability to get close undetected, or their jumping it is all of these combined a fast undetected scout jumping and tossing a remote up to 10 meters and being able to dodge 4 people shooting right at him is OP the whole issue would be solved if remotes had a max 1 meter tossing distance ....You come across both ignorant and unmoveable with this post. Yes I'm an RE scout, no that's not all I do, to make assumptions about my playstyle, my motives, and my character without knowing or even engaging in a conversation with myself makes me think one of two things= You are ignorant. or You're a troll. If you did speak to me instead of brushing me off you'd have learned a few things on my opinion on the subject, including my multiple threads on the subject of balancing REs. With your response I can only imagine you're either a troll or a fool, for multiple reasons. I don't know you but that's all you're presenting here with your response. Now=can we try this again? im neither a troll or a fool... and I was right you are a scout... that aside, I did not mean to come off as brushing you off, I don't know of your threads. link them and I will read them... I only meant to convey the bias a scout inherently feels, as any of us do about our personal playstyles... I am in favor of mechanics that reward skill instead of items you can get that lesson the players contribution to achieve what only players of great skill should be able to pull off... I think a fast, low prfile high jumping scout, armed with one of the most powerful weapons in the game should have some serious drawbacks but tossing them as far as they can nullifies what I believe should be a remotes biggest drawback, its range. Thank you. And yes the REs throwing range is a bit far, for an explosive ment to destroy buildings we toss them pretty damn hard, but mind you it's there for a reason it's to make them somewhat more viable for non scouts as well as not having to be directly in the line of fire of hostiles. (presumably) Now yes the REs are in need of a swat on the rear, however the scouts are and have been RE users due to thier speed, like the flux grenade and Mass driver they simply work together by playing on eachother's strength. Let me ask about another scout problem: do you think so many would complain about the shotgun if we didn't have the ability to use them with cloaks? Answer honestly. I'd say cut the toss range by a quarter personaly, more and you screw over non scouts. I'll link the threads should I look for them. lol I have argued this very point to corp members in the past, shotguns are fine where they are and actually need some hit detection tweaking, scouts with cloaks make them seem OP in the right hands. but I feel the RE situation is different because I can do what a scout does in a logi fit (not as well unless I have a height advantage like the top of a staircase). i have seen scouts use the Frisbee mechanic to an exaggerated degree, and that's all I want tweaked. not the timer, not the dmg or area of effect (which I think is broken when you put remotes on walls at some angles but that's a different thread) just the tossing distance. I don't think it will effect non scouts to such a degree that it benefits scouts... scouts would still have an advantage with them, only a more balanced one. make remotes drop like a brick after a meter or 2 instead of 10. am I asking too much?
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 488	Posted - 2014.07.13 19:47:00 - [14] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Seymour KrelbornX wrote: once you take into account a human reaction speed, the chaos of the fight ( mind you I am specifically talking PC here, not pubs, theres a lot more chatter and competition in a pc) and the scouts natural abilities making them extremely fast and almost invisible, 3 seconds is not enough... but I don't want to nerf the timers... I just want to reduce the tossing distance... Tossing distance hurts using REs versus tanks and LAVs - a lot. So that's why timer increase is what you should get. I cant count how many times I have thrown a remote at a vehicle and it doesn't stick... those mechanics are a bit off, in truth if you aren't very close they don't stick anyway increasing the timer hurts a lot as well for other playstyles, like corner traps. tossing distance really only hurts the Frisbee technique scouts are so fond of, reducing the distance thrown still makes them viable to put on vehicles while stopping the scouts from using their jumping ability to toss them ridiculously far.
Seymour KrelbornX Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 517	Posted - 2014.07.14 11:23:00 - [15] - Quote wripple wrote: Just give the dam things a charge up time, like being forced to arm the thing for 3 seconds without sprinting or jumping before you can deploy it. Or perhaps just make it so you can only deploy them while squatting. Or here's a simpler concept; who the hell here has good aim when throwing anything while jumping during an olympic sprint? Just remove the ability to toss them while in the air. It's stupid to say that a good remotely detonated explosive shouldn't kill everything within its blast radius, but the fact that a booby trap can be used as a hit and run weapon would be the equivalent of quickscoping a sniper rifle in this game. It just doesn't belong. I think its just as simple to cap their tossing distance... in the end I don't care whats done as long as only the Frisbee technique is affected...